Ian Benouis, Ben Moore, Gabriel Hardie

keywords: psychedelics, psilomethoxin, veterans, mental health, community healing, sacred synthesis, psilocybin, psilocin, drug development, therapy, sanctuary model.

hashtags:
#psilomethoxin #sacredsynthesis #toadshrooms #bufoboomers #churchofpsilomethoxin #toadally #hikrodosing #psilotoad #toadstool #

summary: In this first episode of the series Tryptamine Cowboy Chronicles, hosts Gabriel Hardie, Ian Benouis, and Benjamin Moore discuss the mission of the Church of the Sacred Synthesis, focusing on the healing potential of psychedelics, particularly Psilomethoxin.

They explore the importance of community in accessing these substances, the challenges of legalizing psychedelics, and the innovative approaches they are taking to bring these medicines to the public. The conversation delves into the science behind Psilomethoxin, its unique properties compared to psilocybin, and the experiential differences reported by users. The episode concludes with a call to action for community involvement and transparency in the development of psychedelic therapies.

Benjamin Moore (Ben) speaks first, describing his background working with psychedelics in retreats, especially for veterans. He explains that he believes these plant medicines are gifts that can help people, and he wants to make them more accessible.

Ian Benouis discusses his experience as a Blackhawk helicopter pilot in Operation Just Cause and his subsequent PTSD. He shares his experience using Toad (5-MeO-DMT) for healing and how that led to his involvement with developing and providing access to psychedelic compounds, especially for veterans. He expresses his concern over veteran suicides.

The conversation focuses on the potential of Psilomethoxin, a psychedelic compound that is reportedly effective in treating PTSD and other mental health conditions. They believe that it could be a safe and effective alternative to traditional pharmaceuticals and want to make it accessible to those in need.

They discuss forming the Church of the Sacred Synthesis to protect the sacrament and PsiloCap as a company to protect the production process of Psilomethoxin. They aim to bring Psilomethoxin to market as an over-the-counter supplement through a pre-order model, bypassing the lengthy and expensive FDA approval process.

They emphasize their commitment to transparency, community involvement, and providing education and resources about Psilomethoxin. The podcast delves into the differences between Psilomethoxin and other psychedelics like psilocybin, particularly regarding their effects on the nervous system and subjective experiences.

They discuss the potential benefits of Psilomethoxin for treating PTSD, its potential for microdosing, and the importance of further research and data collection. They speak about the VA having a patent on Psilomethoxin for treating PTSD.

The podcast ends with a call to action, encouraging listeners to learn more about Psilomethoxin, share the information, and support the mission of making this potentially life-changing medicine accessible to all.

takeaways

• Psychedelics can facilitate healing for veterans.
• Psilomethoxin is a promising compound for mental health.
• Community-based models are essential for access to psychedelics.
• The sanctuary model offers a natural healing environment.
• Legal challenges hinder access to psychedelic therapies.
• Transparency in drug development is crucial.
• Veteran suicide rates highlight the need for effective treatments.
• Psilomethoxin may have unique effects compared to psilocybin.
• Community drug development can empower individuals.
• The Church of the Sacred Synthesis aims to provide equitable access.

Patent granted to VA for treating PTSD with Psilomethoxin

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Tryptamine Cowboy Chronicles

03:03 The Mission Behind Sacred Synthesis

05:58 Understanding Psilomethoxin

08:46 The Role of Community in Psychedelic Access

11:45 The Sanctuary Model for Healing

14:59 Challenges in Legalizing Psychedelics

18:03 Community Drug Development

21:01 The Science of Psilomethoxin

24:10 Experiential Differences: Psilomethoxin vs. Psilocybin

27:04 The Future of Psychedelic Medicine

30:07 Closing Thoughts and Next Steps

Transcript

Psilo Toad (00:00)
Welcome to the Tryptamine Cowboy Chronicles.

Psilo Toad (00:01)
Why not? How does that feel with you?

Psilo Toad (00:04)
Okay.

I it, I like it. It’s in line, it’s kinda goofy but like true at the same time, you know? yeah, I like it.

Psilo Toad (00:14)
Exactly.

From the dust we emerge.

Ian Benouis (00:21)
emerge.

in the dust we trust.

Psilo Toad (00:25)
of industry trust.

Psilo Toad (00:28)
All right, what’s up everybody? Welcome back to the Sacred Synthesis podcast. I am your host, Gabriel Hardy, and this is a very special episode today. It’s the first episode of the Triptamine Cowboy Chronicles. I am joined by two founders of the Church of the Sacred Synthesis, Ian and Ben. So yeah, Ben, do you just wanna go first here? Kind of introduce yourself and tell people what it is you do.

Psilo Toad (00:30)
yeah.

Yeah, I’m having a little bit of a movement around. Yes, what do I do? That’s a mouthful. So yeah, my name is Benjamin Moore. And if you’re watching this and a member of the church, you probably already know me. And if not, then yeah, I’ll tell you a little backstory that brought me here today. And I started working with psychedelics, sort of.

As I came back from operational army into institutional part, like into recruiting and they started bringing a lot of things up in my life and like allowed me to kind of move forward in my own process out of self doubt and some of these other childhood things that I was dealing with into a way of wanting to grow and connect.

other people to these pathways that I found for myself. And so in doing that, I experimented with taking veterans and doing retreats and doing medicine work and more more confirming that these plants and fungi and animals are really gifts for us and that

I wanted to give my life to continue to offer and help facilitate the delivery of these substances to human beings, especially those that needed them that are in my archetypal category, I guess, and at risk. And really everybody ultimately, but I see a very specific target demographic that is meaningful to me, and that’s veterans.

this is continuation of that and this is really important to have conversations around the topics of these very important compounds that

really need to be sort of brought to human beings in the best, most equitable way possible. I like to be defined by the work that I do. And so this is really sort of in that vein, just continuing on that mission of giving medicine to the people. So yeah, thanks dude.

Psilo Toad (03:28)
Awesome, awesome, yeah dude. So just to give people a little bit more context about this series, it’s gonna be a weekly podcast with me, Ben, Ian, we may or may not have guests on. sort of the things, some of the things that Ben was alluding to there.

some of the work that we’re doing and want to do, especially with veterans, that’s something that we’re going to kind of unpack today and set the scene for you guys, you know, and tell you what this is all sort of about. But before we do that, Ian, could you kind of give us an introduction and introduce yourself?

Ian Benouis (04:05)
Sure, so my military service included being a Blackhawk helicopter pilot in Operation Just Cause, the invasion of Panama to remove Noriega. so I experienced the PTSD that many people do in their service. And in 2016, I went to Mexico and

Psilo Toad (04:05)
Sure, so I’ll go to…

Ian Benouis (04:32)
as patient number one at the mission within to do Toad and Iboga. And now through that program, there’s been a thousand people including members of Congress and President’s son, Hunter Biden, that have gone through this program, helping to heal veterans of their war trauma and get them off the pharmaceuticals. And that’s…

That’s what I’ve been doing since then. And after working with 5MEO with the Toad in 2016, I was trying to figure out how to get a, you know, oral version of the Toad. And that’s what led me to Psilomethoxin and to Jochen Gartz and Sasha Shuldin. And yeah, that’s what I’ve been playing around since then because…

Like Ben’s talking about, all these medicines and molecules are meaningless if we can’t get them to the people. Veteran suicide is an epidemic. So for me, it’s about making the medicines accessible in a safe and equitable manner. And yeah, and because we can’t wait, with 44 veterans a day committing suicide, and if there’s no actual right to try, then it’s just a right to die. And that’s what people already signed up for, so.

If we can’t, if we’re going to send veterans to war, we got to take care of them as we bring them back. And yeah, I’m sure we’ll dive more into that. yeah, that’s what I’m here is to get the medicines for people and especially help veterans.

Psilo Toad (06:14)
Amen, brother. Yeah. So just to give people even more context, members of the church listening to this are going to be very familiar with some of the things that we’re covering. just, you know, imagine that we’re speaking to somebody who hasn’t heard of you guys, hasn’t heard of our church, hasn’t heard of Psilomethoxin. Ian or Ben, when you kind of like give a brief description of what silent with oxen is, how we came up, how you came about it. And then like sort ofthe formation of the church and the status of all of that.

Ian Benouis (06:48)
Sure, sure. So, Psilomethoxin was for the first time ever synthesized in 1965 by Mark Julia’s group at the Pasteur Institute in this 10 -step process from Mexican vanilla from an orchid. And rapidly oxidized, wasn’t preserved, wasn’t heard from again as far as we knew until Sasha Shulgin was asked about it in 2005 and he said, well,

giving even odds that if you put mushrooms, spores, and 5 -MeO DMT on cow manure, that it’ll make this compound, which I was having worked with 5 -MeO DMT and shared it with other people and other veterans looking for how do I get that afterglow effect? How do I get the longer acting effect over a more flattened curve with 5 -MeO DMT? And the way nature did that was taking DMT and

for hydroxylating it, turning it into psilocin, right? And that prevents the monamine oxidase from breaking it down. So under that kind of logic, I’m like, well, if you get able to for hydroxylate 5 -meo DMT, you can make it orally active and prevent the stomach from breaking it down and then get past the, the stomach into the blood. And yeah, that’s what it appeared to do.

When we found that we had something unique in this 5 -HT1A effect, like 5 -MeO DMT, in this oral form, we realized that the government might be interested in regulating that by its own, this was three years ago, but two years ago the government tried to schedule 5 -MeO MIPT. that fear wasn’t unreasonable, and so we formed the church.

to protect our sacrament. This is a gift from God we figured out and we wanted the government to its hands off it. And then at the same time we formed PsiloCap as a company to protect Psilomethoxin and how to make it and making it from other companies who would want to interfere with that.

Psilo Toad (09:24)
had my mic muted there. Okay, so thank you for that. Hold on just a second guys. Hey Bubba. Hey Bubba. Hey, can you close the door please? Because I’m recording. Love you. Hey, you got back late last night from Universal Studios. My parents took me to Universal Studios for the week.

Ian Benouis (09:27)
No worries.

Psilo Toad (09:54)
They got back late last night from the airport, so I let them stay home from school another day and hang out with me. I’ll obviously edit that part out and stuff there. But okay, awesome. So yeah, thank you for that, Ian. So we have something ahead of us, kind of like you described. We came across Psilomethoxin and we established this church.

Ian Benouis (10:01)
Okay.

That’s right.

Super nice.

Psilo Toad (10:23)
I think all three of us here have subjectively experienced what I would report as unique sort of benefits from the sacrament, is Psilomethoxin. When I say Psilomethoxin, it’s not the isolated Psilomethoxin compound. It is Psilomethoxin grown in the substrate psilocybin mushrooms. And to me, it has a unique sort of antidepressant effect. Experientially, feels…

somewhat different. It does feel similar as well too, but different. And I’ve heard other people report that. Many of our members report that. And so there’s something going on here, right? And there’s a lot of potential and a lot of different companies are looking at different 5 -HT, potential 5 -HT, 1A agonists, antagonists, these different tryptamines.

I guess this kind of plays back into the name, the Tryptamine Cowboy Chronicles, because we have, we discovered Psilomethoxin, set up the church, people are getting safe access to a psychedelic compound in which they’re experiencing very radical, therapeutic benefits from, similar to something like psilocybin, yet there’s this unique opportunity which we’re presented with where people can get access to it.

have seen this game playing out for several years now within psychedelic renaissance of the sort of medical model, a lot of the legal models that are being pushed forth and trying to get through haven’t gotten through. It’s taking a lot of time. like, you know, for example, Rick Doblin’s Lycos therapeutics just got kind of halted in his tracks and it’s like, doesn’t stop it for good, but it looks like it’s going to stop it for at least another several years. The MDMA assisted.

therapy, right?

Psilo Toad (12:16)
Well, think, I think also like, I’d like to like piggyback on that. you’re saying is like a blessing in disguise because, I don’t know. I don’t want, assisted therapy attached to my anything. Period. Like period. And so I think thankfully it got stopped and not to like dis MDMA because that’s super valuable. love MDMA to be available. But if you look at like over medicalization of compounds,

It’s just going to lead to a further delay and more criminalization of people, you know, because if it’s access through prescribed means or observed supervised only, people are still going to need their medicine that have to wait. And I tell you right now, because I just transitioned out of the military, it was like to get a private provider to six month wait, like, we can see new patients in six months, six months.

appointments. yeah, flood the new market with willing patients and create exponentially longer wait times to get access because there’s no infrastructure. It’s not, it’s not, I think it’s just creates more resistance. like, think the best only only way forward is like straight to the people through some route of availability that doesn’t require a prescription.

And yeah. So.

Psilo Toad (13:46)
Right. I think that’s a really important point that you just brought up right there because I don’t know if I heard that said enough, right off the rip you said, you I don’t want the assisted therapy attached to it. you you kind of like listed out some of the reasons why, right? But could you go into like a little bit further detail of like what maybe even like on a personal level, why you wouldn’t prefer that route of assisted therapy and what other

sort of route slash like model do you think would be more efficacious?

Psilo Toad (14:23)
well, right now, think that the…

Let’s see, sanctuary model, sanctuary retreat model is the, is I think the best, most useful for this, like as a, I think as a model, as a standard, because it enables the spirit of these medicines to permeate into the process. And for the individuals going through, it’s more natural and it’s more,

sort of like human behavior, like our indigenous ways, all of our indigenous ways, like small tribes or groups are most comforting to people. And so the practice of going through these with this type of a group in a setting where people are communing with one another without like prescribed rules. It’s like the only rules are we do these ceremonies like

Right now with the illuminating company that I work with, it’s a really amazing, beautiful process where they’re getting prepared for this experience and then they go to a place where they stay together and there’s 10 people, co -ed or all women, all men, and they bond together in the process and then go through

there are like sort of psychedelic rites of passage right through these medicines, like a large dose of mushrooms and then, you know, some space and then, then Bufo. And then, then it’s like the integration part and like the coaching that happens after the fact just helps sort of guide the process. But it’s not a like, you go to a therapist and it’s extractive analysis where they’re trying to get you to

share all this information and then they can analyze where you’re at based on the knowing of where you are, you are in space. And I think the only entity or being that can do that are these medicines themselves. And then it’s just on us as humans to sort of help to shape the flow of energy, like sort of creating a river, you know, for people in that way. So then they can flow, it’s much simpler and there’s less…

risk for bad behavior. You can see with the MDMA assisted therapy stuff, there’s been a lot of bad behavior associated with it. So the risk for that is minimized, maybe even eliminated also. So there’s a lot of benefits to that. then all these studies, they can get their same data by coming observing, participating in the process, and being hands off.

people in lab coats doing stuff, it’s just unnatural. So there’s going to be a blunted effect because of that.

I know if I summed it up enough.

Psilo Toad (17:34)
Yeah. No, that was fantastic. And I really resonate with a lot of what you just said there. It seems like, right, I think that these sort of smaller community based models where there’s power to the individual, power to the community, power to the people, right? But how do we do that at scale? Because, know, obviously, psilocybin mushrooms decriminalize in certain areas.

Legalized things like that, but it’s but for the most part where most people live getting access to Psychedelic compounds can be not only difficult, but most of the time also illegal And so it does set up a sort of interesting market where there’s a lot of people Sort of operating within a sort of gray area whether that be through different products whether that be through churches what have you right?

And then there’s people operating through the black market, which has all sorts of pitfalls as we know. We know the sort of place that prohibition has taken us with that. Right. But it seems like over the length of human history, there’s a lot of evidence and archaeological data pointing to the consistent use of these plant medicines. And in this day and age, we still

the market still represents that there’s a large demand. And I believe in the sort of like premise of power to the people, get this to them at scale, obviously provide education, resources, community, that’s the big thing that people need, community, right? We’ve wrapped around this, but like, once again, it kind of comes back to that question of like these efforts to bring these things to scale through the sort of…

medical, you know, psychological, psychotherapy models just isn’t really giving, at least not right now. like, as Ian, and I think Ben, you’ve probably alluded to plenty of times yourself, we’re in a sort of like mental health crisis for our population as a whole, but especially the veteran population. is staggering the statistics there is on that, the amount of veterans that commit suicide, the amount of veterans.

It’s not even just the veterans who commit suicide, too. There’s a lot of veterans that are walking around in living hell, and there’s a lot of people within our society that are walking around living hell. And there’s a lot of data and a lot of anecdotal evidence, a lot of people that will preach the unique efficacy of these compounds. And so could one of you just sort of rip off the bandaid here and tell people exactly what we plan to do to possibly bring the legal psychedelic compound to market at scale?

Ian Benouis (20:34)
I’ll give it a whirl first. So I think the key bottleneck that Ben and I realized is that there’s only 55 drugs that get approved every year through the FDA process. So these classic psychedelic drugs, they’re on schedule one because Nixon put them there. schedule one says no medical value. So the only way these companies see to get

them accessed as medicines is to get an FDA indication, right? That’s their way to prove out medical value. And we’ve realized that’s not really required if something’s not on the schedule. As an example, right? We know Ibogaine is on the schedule, right? So then that means you could have potential analog issues with Ibogaine derivatives. Yet in Aubrey Marcus and Joe Rogan’s

Onnit company that has alpha brain. The unique ingredient that’s in their product and not in others is vinpocetine, which is a semi -synthetic derivative of vincamene, which comes from the seeds of the iboga plant. Right? And so one could try to argue, and I think unsuccessfully, that it’s a iboga alkaloid and subject to the Analog Act.

but nobody’s going after Aubrey Marcus because that substance is in there. And so there’s the things that are on the list of schedule one that people can try to get off and it’s going to take years and years and MDMA just learned that. And there’s things that aren’t on the list. And two years ago, the DEA was trying to emergency schedule 5 -MeO -MIPT. And now that’s been applied for as a new drug application.

by a company, MindStates Design Labs, that’s promoting it now as a medical substance that will eventually get an FDA indication. But there’s only 55 drugs that can make it through every year. So there’s got to be another way, and that’s this community drug development that Ben and I are talking about a bunch. So yeah, I’ll stop there so I don’t keep on going.

Psilo Toad (23:11)
Is this thing on? Alright, I’m figuring this out. Forgive us! We’re gonna get this sorted. Yeah, I guess I’ll just continue on with what Ian said. yeah, we think this can be delivered over the counter. I think that, as a matter of fact, I know that this is what’s needed right now.

So we have a, we put together a plan that we believe is a safe route to delivery. And we have a pretty good understanding of the marketplace and sort of what’s needed and what can work and the legal framework and regulatory framework and stuff. through the nutraceutical pathway,

we believe we can bring Psilomethoxin to market. it’s without having to go through FDA clinical trials, just as a supplement akin to vinpocetene or any other nutritional supplements. so yeah, that’s where we’re going.

We have the understanding of the model and the infrastructure. We want to really be super transparent. you know, in full transparency, I don’t have the ends. Like I didn’t go to business school and get all these network leads to be like, yo, VC or yo, you know, I need business advice. I just put in the shit together, you know, because I think it needs to be done and I don’t know how any other way to do it. So we built a model out that’s like really based on,

the model that we were operating under for the church as far as the infrastructure and the cost and logistics, all that stuff. So it’s like, we did a really good job with the finances as far as like understanding how much it costs to do business and how much it costs to produce compounds and deliver them and the logistical constraints and all that stuff related to that. like taking that knowledge,

We put together a pretty robust plan of production delivery and we have some really important partnerships that we’ve made in the space with people who can deliver us a sustainable source of silo -lithoxin. so these guys have produced psilocybin successfully in yeast and they have 11 other patents.

on producing psychedelic and cannabinoid compounds in yeast. And so we have an agreement with them to produce a Psilomethoxin and they said it’s gonna take 16 months at the accelerated rate and it’s gonna cost about 4 .4 million bucks. we’re doing our best to put together some

pathways to get that mission accomplished and one of those ways is to offer the output of that to people as a product that they can pre -order and so you know we need 44 ,000 people to say yes to this product or to this pre -order offering and it’s almost like interesting because 44 numbers like what could be 44 veterans a day.

kill themselves as according to the latest Alabama University of Alabama study. So you know we need 44,000 people to say yes and it can totally fund and finance the whole thing and deliver those 44,000 people a supply of it. So we want to be fully transparent and share. We’re gonna put the business plan on website and totally be honest and forthright with everything, pricing models.

Who gets what pays like all that stuff just because you know, I think that’s important right now in this day and age with the over capitalization of everything. Not the capital is bad. It’s not just a tool like a battery resource, but it’s that it’s how it’s used and like and when things can be done like private and back back back rooms, of course things happen, you know Murphy’s law. Murphy doesn’t

She does not disappoint. And so in that way, it’s like, let’s be fully transparent, tell everybody everything and they get what they want. If they want to support us, great. If not, well, that’s great too. Because I’m trying to get this done. I’m trying to get this mission moving so I can get, deliver this compound to people. And Ian can speak volumes as to like the sort of like more of the effects on the brain and how it helps people.

it helps people. And so I guess it was more of like, yeah, let’s get together and do this.

Psilo Toad (28:43)
Absolutely. And I think one of the things that we were talking about the other day is, you know, sort of regarding why we’re going towards this sort of pre -sale model, this thing that people can buy into. First of all, because it’s kind of for the people. But second of all, that allows us as a church to sort of retain

I want to make sure I word this correctly. We’re going to retain ownership over that because the issue is with lot of these sort of things is that we do go the investor route. There is a large chance that, you know, somebody owning a majority or large chunk of the business could become problematic and corrupt the sort of sacred vehicle that we’re trying to build because human beings have a tendency in a history of

being of running off of incentive structures, right? A lot of it comes back to incentive structures. And we ask ourselves, why do things play out the way they do? Why do people act the way they do in certain positions? And so it’s really important to us that we do retain ownership over that. And so we can keep it as a secret vehicle. People can get it at a very accessible price. Yeah, and it stays available for the people.

Yeah, so Ian, could you sort of speak on, like Ben alluded to, some of the unique properties of Psilomethoxin compared to psilocybin and other psychedelic compounds?

Ian Benouis (30:24)
Sure, and this is, you know, to kind of flow into your previous…

Sorry, we were reconnecting there to flow into your previous comment. You know, we’re still figuring this all out. This is why we want to provide Psilomethoxin separately from the sacrament, right? Everything that’s going on in there is so that people can have access to something that’s not on the schedule and

doesn’t come with the limitations that psilocybin and psilocin do as schedule one drugs. yeah, so I’m really saying is we’re not yet fully understood on the, the different entourage effects and things that are going on within the container of the mushroom that Psilomethoxin is part of. Yet when we run it through the, you know,

Simulation computers and they all say that it’s it’s safe as Psilocin lasts for about the same amount of time as Psilocin and that it has the price primary activities in the 5ht1a receptor site just like 5 -meo DMT we know that DMT Psilocin and LSD we call the classic psychedelics all affect the 5ht2a

receptor site and they have a much greater like a thousand times affinity so the you know, Psilocin is affecting the 5ht2a receptor and 5 -Meo DMT and Psilomethoxin appears to be affecting the 5 -HT1A and that just means it’s different from these classics and what it’s going to

feel like by itself as a pure molecule. None of us really know yet. We’re looking forward to experiencing that and seeing for ourselves. But all the signs point to it’s going to be something we expected more of a 5 -MeO, know, oral effect that the DMT effect is minimized in the molecule. But I can’t wait to find out because as far as we know,

No one has ever bioassayed the pure molecule that they’ve synthesized. So we’ve done testing that, you know, it’s not ready for peer review yet, right? It’s least shown, shown Psilomethoxin in our sacrament yet. Yeah, we don’t have the pure versions of it to test. So we want that to.

Psilo Toad (33:16)
Right, and just for like full transparency, so what we’re kind of running off of so far is the large pool of anecdotal evidence that we have from ourselves and our church members and then also these sort of computer programs, these computer models that you’re speaking about. Could you sort of like explain in a little more detail how exactly those work?

Ian Benouis (33:41)
Sure, sure. And let me just say, so for our own history, when we experienced this, Shulgin’s recipe, his vision, we shared it with all the five MEO heads, people like Martin Ball and Rak Razam and Joe Barsuglia to validate our perspective of this predominant 5 -HT1A effect we’re feeling. And they all said yes. So all the wizards said yes, there’s, can’t, none of us can like,

We were able to do the testing at that point. We’re like, but this is all 5 -HT1 effect. Like you’re getting the 5 -MEO DMT, except as compared to the vaporized curve you might have, it’s just a lot slower. And as someone here, just like Ben, we’ve done 5 -MEO DMT in nasal sprays, we’ve done the carts, we’ve done all the different formulations. And with knowing all that, the effect that you feel, people feel from.

tens of thousands of doses of our sacrament that contain Psilomethoxin is this predominant 5 -HT1A effect. And we’ve even had studies done, multiple locations now, which showed, take the same mushrooms you grow with just regular water for psilocybin mushrooms and then feed them 5 -MeO -DMT. We’ve done that. And the amount of psilocin has gone down by a significant amount. least that shows up there. So we know that the…

Something’s happening and that 5-Meo-DMT is going somewhere. And that’s what we’re still figuring out now is, yeah, what’s going on from all the scientific perspective. that, yeah, let me know that’s helpful or not and we’ll go even deeper.

Psilo Toad (35:25)
That was very helpful. Could you also describe how these sort of computer models work a little bit too? The one that indicated the sort of…

Ian Benouis (35:33)
yeah, thanks. Thanks.

Sure, sure. That’s a great question. so, yeah. There’s, okay, there’s AI now that’s like read all of the FDA submissions for every drug ever put in, right? And so now they can look at these different classes of medicines and that predict safety variables and look at different safety criteria.

That database allows now with this computational AI to look at new similar molecules. And so when these drug companies are making these new things, they can look at it and go, okay, before I, you know, God forbid, give it to rat one, I can run it through the computer models and see is it going to be unsafe? Is it going to be a liver toxicity issue based on similar molecules? So, and that’s now shown to be

even more accurate than the process itself where it showed extra stuff that turned out to be unsafe later that the FDA led through, you know what mean? And had to be cleaned up. But so that computer modeling just showed that Psilomethoxin is a molecule in mammal, you know, pharmacokinetics is just as safely eliminated and processed as Psilocin.

And then it’s about the same length too, as far as the, not so much the half -life, but the blood bioavailability. And then the other part of it is like, you can run any these molecules through the ligand simulations of the receptor sites and say, this is gonna more turn the key like 5MeO does, right? Versus the 5HT2A. So that software,

says that Psilomethoxin, the molecule’s effect is predominantly 5 -HT1A versus the other psychedelics that are 5 -HT2A.

Psilo Toad (37:47)
Awesome, awesome, that was great, Ian. So what would you say based on any sort of clinical research out there, any sort of potential theories and also, once again, sort of anecdotal evidence that we have from the church, what would you say are the benefits, the potential benefits of a sacrament where a psychedelic compound like this that is a 5 -HT1A, where it

it targets the 5 -HT 1A serotonin receptor more so than the 5 -HT 2A serotonin receptor. What are the unique benefits to that compared to something like psilocybin which targets 2A more than 1A?

Ian Benouis (38:32)
Yeah, I’ll start and then I’ll segue into Ben, because more of the science and some of the personal stories. But the most direct one is that these SSRIs work in the 5 -HT1A system. So they relax you, but they kind of also dampen you down at the same time. And we’ve seen people where we gave it to them directly, and they were on SSRIs, on them for 10 or 15 years, and we gave them some of our sacrament.

And they, yeah, within what half an hour or when said this is the happiest I’ve been in the whole time we’ve been on the meds. So yeah, we’ve, you you all know we can’t make any medical claims and yet there’s been lots of people who found that that limitation in their 5 -HT1A biochemistry is energized and alleviated by using Psilomethoxin. And that’s allowed numbers of people to

Wean and get off as this arrives and then be accessing Psilomethoxin in the sacrament on a more as needed basis rather than having a prescription with the health plan that you got to take every day and go to the pharmacy to get your coverage.

Psilo Toad (39:53)
Yeah, I’ll just, I’ll segue on that too. yeah. So like applying this, this medicine as a, as a replacement for SSRIs or other really it’s, SSRIs are a five HT1a agonist as well. So that’s the, that’s the receptor that’s being targeted because that’s the one that’s, that’s governed, especially with like PTSD cases. That’s what’s like modulating the.

Ian Benouis (39:53)
Yeah, I’ll just,

Psilo Toad (40:23)
like the sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system dysregulation. And so when you work with like a serotonin 5HT2A, that’s modulating your fight or flight system, the system that governs fight or flight. So you can get that reset and like back in balance. And then the serotonin 5HT1A is freeze collapse. So you have fight or flight and freeze collapse. Those are the two systems.

that are governing sort of the processes that are going on. And so when you breathe in, you activate your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight. Serotonin 5HT2A receptors are being modulated. And so, and when you exhale, activates your parasympathetic nervous system. So that’s your freeze collapse nervous system. That’s, it’s agonizing your vagus nerve, which is relaxing it.

And the vagus nerve is the one that’s sort of like, think of like a snake’s coils up to constrict, to strike. That’s what’s in people, right? Their stuff is coiled and especially in this, in the high risk community or a trauma community or whatever, where people are having PTSD is like, it’s the fear and it creates tension because fear in self -protection is the the last resort. So when people are stuck in these worlds,

that have lived through these lives, their inner spirit is sort of like constricted, ready to strike because that’s their last line of defense. And so a compound that goes in there and agonizes it and chills it out, relaxes that part of them and they go into like the rest digest phase, which is parasympathetics, like relax. There’s nothing to do, there’s nothing to fight, sort of surrender into life and.

then the fear sort of goes away. So then people are able to function without that resistant sort of hyper awareness, right? And especially veterans. So, you we’ve seen so many people, especially with the communities that we serve, just shift completely, like able to sit with their backs towards the door and just, you know, not have their head on the swivel.

It’s nice, it’s nice to see that. then like classic psychedelics like mushrooms, LSD, they work in the sympathetic nervous system by like really sort of like over stimulating it so much where it almost like pops through the membrane. It’s like a full reset, right? And that’s really good for like the sensory information, right? That’s where you get like synesthesia with working with those, right? Cause it’s working through that system, right? Sight, sound, hearing.

all that stuff gets crossed up in that process. And that confusion helps you forget, forget what orange looks like or what fruit tastes like, right? It resets all that stuff, which is amazing and beautiful. But it has its place in the healing process for individuals through their work. That’s how I got started with mushrooms. I was just like, really,

changed everything, changed how I saw the whole world. And then working with the Bufo and 5MEO just like, it got me to that point in the meditation where it’s able to, I mean, I’m more able to like on call get my nervous system in the place it needs to be. I’m like, okay, I can raise intensity, lower intensity and all like more logically and less.

lesson sort of like a reactionary state with the world, which this is what it’s not what you want to be in. And so like those medicines sort of taught me that and then being able to work with it myself on my own, through the breath, right? all really ultimately through the breath, right? These medicines teach us how to breathe. You just have to fully fill our lungs because when you fully fill your lungs, it activates the vagus nerve and you who would have thought? So it’s an interesting connection that these medicines bring into the human optimization.

So my long -winded answer for that.

Psilo Toad (44:38)
Now I really enjoyed and appreciated your sort of description and talking about the different receptor sites and how that kind of plays out for you in describing the interaction with our nervous system because it makes sense based on my own subjective experiences with some of the classic serotonergic psychedelics like psilocybin LSD and how those experiences play out compared to some of the 5HT1A.

you know, psychedelics that I’ve interacted with, like five MEO molt. I’ve found typically within my 5HT2A experiences, and I’ve described this many times, but there seems to be pretty reliably, and this isn’t a blanket statement for every experience, but almost every experience, this sort of…

hero’s journey that’s played out where kind of like you described Ben, is this, at least at the beginning, almost always right in the come up phase, this over stimulation, this breaking through the membrane and on the other side of that membrane, whatever that membrane to me is sort of represents maybe kind of like the, there seems to be somewhat of a resolution that happens, right? Whether that be like.

spiritually, sometimes I just think about something different psychologically and there’s a switch that flips, but there is this sort of membrane that you burst through this, this switch that seems to flip in this, this hero’s journey that’s, that’s played out of a sort of intense come up resolution. And then this peace and equanimity reached on the other side of it. And that’s very typical for my eight, five HT two experiences. Whereas

Psilo Toad (45:54)
That’s right.

Psilo Toad (46:18)
A lot of my 5HT1A experiences, especially with sialomethoxin, haven’t always followed that same timeframe. And there is this sense of warmth and relaxation that has that unique sense of it that I’ve experienced on 5HT1A psychedelics. one in particular, 5 -MeO MALT, the times that I…

experience this compound, had encephalated it, know, snorted it, and it was about an hour long experience. And that space felt very similar to me to a high dose Psilomethoxin experience, this sort of like warmth and comfort and definitely sort of exploration of myself that is similar to psilocybin, but

different, you know, and it’s really hard for me to put it into words. I guess what I’m trying to say is I felt what you were, I’m picking up what you’re putting down then. but could you also maybe like, could you talk about like how this kind of plays out experientially a lot within your experiences and what a lot of other people report like with the sacrament, I guess, like in layman’s terms, what do people describe as and what is your experience as a

you know the sort of differences between, what is the difference between psilocybin and psilomethoxin for you?

Psilo Toad (47:48)
yeah, well psilocybin is so unique in that it starts to activate thought memory patterns. Things start to come up if I’m in a place and smell some smell that reminds me of my daycare or something. So my brain will start going into real processing wherever I am. Like mushrooms, it’s like I’m going into some sort of journey.

somewhere, you know, and it’s nice, it’s beautiful, and I get like these like sort of like orbital fractal overlays, even in microdose. Like if I close my eyes, get it. I’m really sensitive to mushrooms these days. And with Psilomethoxin, the Psilomethoxin mushrooms, it’s almost like fluid. It’s like the density, it’s like the air becomes just all part of my everything.

Like everything is just connected and there’s some resistance, not like firm against it, but like a supportive, like a supportive holding of my whole body. It’s like in space. So it’s interesting. And then like higher doses, I think a couple of weeks ago, we went on a hike and I ended up taking like one and a half grams. And dude, I was Walter. I was like a bag of water. It’s just like sloshing around.

It was very interesting, but fluid and no, I don’t get the fractal. I don’t get any of that like, overlay whatsoever. And I get, there’s no processing. I’m like so, it’s almost like I’m so hyper in the now moment. If the moment could be split and be inserted into that is where I was existing. Like just so in that present moment that everything was just flowing through me.

And so it’s very, very interesting and totally a different, like a one and a half grams of mushrooms, like I am in mushroom, like I’m in some fractal pattern experience. So yeah, it’s totally different. And this is consistent, like consistent with the few years of mushrooms that have been being grown. just like the same experience.

WURR!

Ian Benouis (50:25)
word.

Psilo Toad (50:26)
I was waiting for Ian. I thought he was about to talk. I didn’t want to interrupt him. You can go ahead, Ian.

Psilo Toad (50:32)
Ha ha ha!

Ian Benouis (50:32)
Yeah, I think the difference, it’s the aliens, right? mean, on mushrooms, you have the aliens and when you realize we are the aliens and on the high dose, Psilomethoxin mushrooms, high dose five MEO DMT, you’re everything. There’s no extra space for an other to be an alien. It’s just all you, so.

5HT1A, there’s no place to go. just you gotta surrender. And yeah, I’ve taken bigger amounts that I found. The Psilomethoxin mushrooms, I need to be doing something because they give me energy without stimulation. And like that’s great in a festival, I’m a gram and a half of that, man. I can go for four sets, I think, for six to eight hours. And that…

not feeling joint pain. It’s been the same thing on the hikes, just like where you can hike more without feeling your pain. yeah, I mean, we’re interested to really find out with people using this, how they’re benefiting and to tie back into the community drug development is that there’s gonna be a lot of people volunteering to take these nutraceuticals, to take these…

you know, botanicals that take these supplements, that take these nootropics to give a data, scientific data, which doesn’t necessarily have to be towards an FDA claim to show efficacy. And then they can own their own data. And then people, instead of it being through the clinical trials and all these drug companies, people could own their own. And we’d love to be helping veterans where they’re validating our stuff. And yeah, so the VA could start using it.

so people could get help because if veterans gotta wait till 2028 to get mushrooms and now by then for MDMA, that’s just unacceptable when these things work now. It’s just bureaucratic overlay that’s preventing its adoption.

Psilo Toad (52:44)
Well, the VA kind of just filed a patent that said Psilomethoxin was an effective treatment for PTSD. so yeah, there’s that. that’s a very interesting that you brought that up. And that’s really the truth. that’s sort of like, yeah, so let’s use the VA. I mean, they’re the biggest healthcare provider in the country.

Ian Benouis (53:14)
Well, on the plan.

Psilo Toad (53:14)
On the plan?

Psilo Toad (53:18)
Yeah, I would love if we could to get like a link to that if possible and we can even like share with the audience and stuff in the description or the show notes because that’s yeah, and just for marketing purposes in general too. so one thing that I’m sure.

Psilo Toad (53:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, and Ian can speak a lot more on that.

Ian Benouis (53:35)
Yeah, Ian can speak a lot more on that.

Psilo Toad (53:38)
Yeah. Awesome.

Ian Benouis (53:40)
Yeah. Let me just say, so there’s a patent and the assignee, the owner of the patent is the Veterans Administration. And it’s a patent where the inventor is Rachel Yehuda at the Mount Sinai VA. And the patent itself is about using different gene therapy in that I read your genes, Gabe, and because of your specific genes, I go, wow, P450 cytochrome metabolism this.

And then I go, that means that this particular psychedelic is best for you, right? And one of those psychedelics that they list on their admittedly long list of all these different psychedelics is Psilomethoxin. So the VA has a patent on Psilomethoxin based on gene therapy identification for PTSD. And then what we’re saying is that’s great, but what good does that piece of paper do if veterans can’t get access to these things?

That’s why we wanna go the more community development route over the counter while we still can prove out safety. And yet we don’t have to wait forever to get access to these, what we already know are safe medicines like psilocybin and psilocin. And studies just showed that the mushrooms are even more efficacious than the pure molecules. And we’re not against the pure molecules obviously. And yet, you know.

We’ve got to recognize these differences to, I guess, play the game to get the medicine to the people.

Psilo Toad (55:11)
And I think one thing to note about the differences there is that, say, bringing the isolated compound to market would not hinder people’s access to, like, say, the full spectrum Psilomethoxin mushroom product if they also wanted that, because likely there is probably unique benefits to each, right? And so one thing that I know a lot of people listening to this…

Ian Benouis (55:36)
Yes, yes.

Psilo Toad (55:38)
Yeah, one thing I know that I’m sure a lot of people listening to this right now are probably wondering, and I think we’re all wondering this ourselves, but what does, you know, isolated Psilomethoxin feel like? And so let’s, if we can, with full transparency, kind of tell people where we’re at with that, what we plan on doing in order to, you know, kind of do some small testing, if you will.

Ian Benouis (56:06)
Sure, well I’ll probably say some stuff and segue into Ben is that we have a contract with CB Therapeutics, I think Ben had mentioned earlier, which they’re the first company with yeast to make psilocybin in 2019. We have a contract for them to make us psilomethoxin from yeast. Hopefully we have by the first quarter of 2026.

You can also make Psilomethoxin and its pro drug. All the different names, Psilomethoxybin or Methoxy Psilocybin, but it’s the pro drug version of Psilomethoxin. It would be broken down in the human gut and converted into Psilomethoxin. there’s, let’s see, there’s patents on, there’s a number of patents on Psilomethoxin and Psilomethoxcybin.

There’s a patent on Psilomethoxin from bacteria. So there’s bacterial ways to get at this. can, where you’re taking those same enzymes that are in the mushrooms and putting them in the bacteria and then they perform the steps of the biosynthesis. Or you can do it with yeast, which, you you just, you’re just still feeding the yeast sugar and it’s making these outputs. You can synthesize it.

and then you can create it in the mushroom or create it in nature naturally occurring where the cow or goat eats grass and then poops manure on flowers grass and has psilocybin mushroom spores on it and then that makes Psilomethoxin, Psilomethoxcybin, probably other molecules. So as far as making it synthetically,

That’s been a big challenge when it was made the first time in 1965. It was a 10 step process of the stuff immediately oxidized. So it couldn’t be preserved or tested or anything. And so we’ve been able to make it, but honestly not successfully extracted out, separated out for further testing confirmation. We have people working on that right now, yet, you know, that might take months, but that’s

The people that are working on it now are planning to submit all this for peer review. So they’ve found 235 .15, the molecular mass for Psilomethoxin in our sacrament, in our living sacrament, like actual the mushrooms still alive on the substrate. And now they’re doing the further testing so that can all be submitted for peer review.

Yeah, hopefully by the beginning of next year. Definitely by the first quarter of next year, think. It’s reasonable.

Yeah, and then what else? going to segue here into Ben. What was that? What was I segued in here into? Like I remember. It’s going to have to jump jump in. I have no idea.

Psilo Toad (59:17)
Are we going to be able to get a small batch to test?

Psilo Toad (59:17)
is gonna have to chop that up. I have no idea.

We’re working on that, like, extremely diligently. We’d like to, as soon as possible. That’s to be determined. Okay, so since it’s all full disclosure, we’d like to do that. We want to make a small batch of it so we can do testing on ourselves, bioassay, for dosing levels.

Ian Benouis (59:26)
We’re working on that, like, extremely diligently. So, we’d like to.

Psilo Toad (59:33)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So this is kind of like this.

Ian Benouis (59:37)
Okay, since it’s all full disclosure, we’d like to do that. We want to make a small batch of it so we can do testing on ourselves, bioassay for dosing levels. And it’s not something easy to make.

Psilo Toad (59:41)
Thank

Psilo Toad (59:56)
It’s to start something easier to make. That’s right.

Psilo Toad (1:00:03)
Yeah, so this is kind of just like me thinking out loud here and brainstorming, picking your guys’ brain about this, considering the fact that based on these computer models, it indicated that Psilomethoxin had a very similar safety profile and things like that to psilocybin, would it be reasonably safe to assume that in terms of

dosing the pure molecule of Psilomethoxin that the dosing range would not fall extremely too far away from the sort of dosing range of pure psilocybin. I know that’s like kind of like we’re getting into some muddy water there because there’s a lot of

Psilo Toad (1:00:49)
I think it’s more closely related to five meo in that way, in that comparison, right? Because like psilocybin, psilocin is like, that’s really what you’re getting. Psilocin is four HO DMT. it’s just DMT with that nature put a hydroxyl group onto. And so in that same way, a Psilomethoxin is four HO five meo DMT. it’s this sort of a similar.

Ian Benouis (1:00:49)
I think it’s more closely related.

Psilo Toad (1:01:19)
So like the cousin maybe. so it stands to reason it would have the same sort of effects in that model, right? So 4-HO-DMT is orally bioavailable. And at the dosing that you would get if you would vaporize it, you’re gonna get a very similar experience to DMT. If you take a high dose of mushrooms, you’re getting DMT World. And like, that’s just how nature of the.

Psilo Toad (1:01:40)
interest.

Psilo Toad (1:01:49)
of the medicine. so, so the five meo, I just, in my own way of thinking that that’s the only thing that would make sense. Whereas five Meo DMT has a unique experience chandelier, you know, very sort of like symmetrical and, you know, crystalline, I would say, as like sort of the after effects and the afterglow period. And so I, I, it’s the same, I get the same feelings with the

And that would stay at the reason that it would be the same sort of just an orally bioavailable method of route of delivery. And then the strength, yeah, like what’s a 5 -MeO full dose is like 10 to 14 milligrams. So if you think of microdose of Psilomethoxin, maybe it’s like one and a half to two milligrams. So it would be the same as a microdose of 5 -MeO, just oral.

Psilo Toad (1:02:44)
Do know what’s really interesting about that to me that you just said? You said, you know, somewhere around like 10 to 15 milligrams for that dosage there with Psilomethoxin is that I believe this sort of standard dosage for psilocybin, like pure psilocybin is somewhere around like 20 milligrams ish. And so a lot of people have reported the sacrament, the Psilomethoxin sacrament to feel somewhere around 1 .5 to two times as strong.

Psilo Toad (1:03:07)
Yeah.

Psilo Toad (1:03:14)
as regular psilocybin, that’s what a lot of people have reported. And of course, that’s not a perfect sort of blanket statement, but if we do apply that same math to the isolated compounds here, that kind of lines up with 20 milligrams standard psilocybin dose, and then a 10 to 15 milligrams sort of standard psilomethoxin dose. And of course, I’m completely open to us being wrong about that. I’m sure there’s a lot that we’re gonna uncover, but it was just an interesting sort of thought that I…

Psilo Toad (1:03:23)
Sure.

Of course.

Psilo Toad (1:03:42)
that I had here about this. I guess sort of like part of the reason why I was probing about this and brainstorming about this is because another question that I’m sure people listening are gonna have thinking about the end product of this thing is so let’s say it is somewhere, it is active in a standard dose is somewhere around let’s say 10 to be safe will go up to like 30, 40 milligrams. And if we’re producing this isolated compound at scale,

likely this is going to lead to people being able to buy, let’s say theoretically, a gram at a time or half gram at a time for a very affordable price and have safe access for repeated sort of medicinal use, if you would. And maybe, I don’t know, you guys comment on that. Am I going on a bit of a stretch there in terms of the price or?

Psilo Toad (1:04:34)
Yeah, we sort of a model around…

around like a supplement, so like 30 -day supplement. And we believe that the, like the per capsule, like a 150 milligram mushroom capsule, thymothoxin mushroom capsule may have like one and a half to two and a half milligrams of thymothoxin in it. So, you we believe that that is around where we think the potency is for a microdose, two and a half.

I think two and a half, two to three milligrams seems would seem to be in line. And even if you based on psilocybin, that’s 10%. So that’s, yeah. But anyway, based on like what five meo DMT would be, it’s like, that’s a microdose. And so we built sort of a model for distribution around that that’s affordable and equitable. And we’re gonna share all that stuff on the website, like the details around that.

so people can see through the whole thing. yeah, and trying to get more into products for like a pragmatic market, which is like the marketplace for everyone. That’s where everybody can, we provide all the information and it’s complete product that we don’t wanna give, we’re not just gonna give bags of stuff to people. We want this to…

Psilo Toad (1:05:44)
Very nice.

Psilo Toad (1:06:11)
to be done the right way. So we built a pretty robust plan around that.

Psilo Toad (1:06:19)
Awesome. So at the time of this podcast coming out, likely we’re going to have the website for this up and or close to being up correct. So I can link that for people down in the description, the show notes. If people want to go check that out, you know, see the roadmap, see the sort of vision that we have going with that. Tell your friends and family about it.

But yeah, other than that guys, I think that this has been a great sort of introductory sort of episode. One thing that I think I would like to unpack with you guys in the next episode, we can kind of sort of brainstorm about this we want, but the unique sort of challenges that we face with veteran trauma and sort of unpacking that, hearing your guys’ perspective on that to sort of, you know, educate people who haven’t experienced that for themselves. So.

But yeah, is there anything else that you guys would like to say to people before we head out of here for the day?

Psilo Toad (1:07:26)
no.

I’m completely…

Ian Benouis (1:07:29)
I’m completely…

Psilo Toad (1:07:32)
This has been a while, but awesome ride.

Ian Benouis (1:07:32)
This has been a wild and awesome ride.

Psilo Toad (1:07:37)
Absolutely. Yeah, I look forward to doing these with you guys the first episode of the trip to me and cowboy chronicles Yeah, much love guys

Ian Benouis (1:07:42)
We got

Psilo Toad (1:07:46)
Haha!

Ian Benouis (1:07:47)
Much love. Peace out. you got a confetti [on the screen]. Jelly.

Psilo Toad (1:07:52)
you got confetti.

Psilo Toad (1:07:55)
It’s stopping right now.

Psilo Toad (1:07:56)
Shall we?