keywords

veteran trauma, psychedelics, healing, mental health, psilomethoxin, gut health, PTSD, natural medicine, community support, citizen science

hashtags
#psilomethoxin
#sacredsynthesis
#toadshrooms
#bufoboomers
#churchofpsilomethoxin
#toadally
#hikrodosing
#psilotoad
#toadstool
#🐸🍄

summary

In this episode, the hosts discuss the profound impact of veteran trauma and the potential healing properties of psychedelics, particularly psilomethoxin. They explore personal stories of trauma, the importance of gut health, and the mental health crisis facing veterans today.

The conversation highlights the limitations of traditional medications like SSRIs and emphasizes the need for accessible natural medicines.

The hosts also touch on environmental responsibility regarding the conservation of the Sonoran Desert toad and the future of psychedelics in society.

takeaways

• The connection between childhood trauma and PTSD is significant.
• Psychedelics can facilitate deep healing and self-discovery.
• Gut health plays a crucial role in mental well-being.
• Veterans face a mental health crisis with alarming suicide rates.
• Traditional medications often have detrimental side effects.
• Psilomethoxin shows promise as a low-risk therapeutic option.
• Community support is vital for veterans seeking healing.
• Natural medicines should be accessible and affordable for all.
• Environmental conservation is essential for the survival of the Sonoran Desert toad.
• Citizen science can play a role in exploring psychedelic properties.

titles

• Healing Veteran Trauma with Psychedelics
• Citizen Science: Home Brewing Psychedelics

Sound Bites

• “The biggest correlator to PTSD is childhood trauma.”
• “Psychedelics can help us unpack all those things.”
• “There’s a crisis in veteran mental health right now.”

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Veteran Trauma

02:54 Personal Stories of Healing

05:35 The Crisis of Mental Health in Veterans

08:55 Barriers to Accessing Psychedelic Treatments

11:35 The Efficacy of Psychedelics vs. Traditional Medicine

14:37 Understanding the Science Behind Psychedelics

24:05 The Natural Connection of Psychedelics

27:07 The Role of Gut Health in Mental Wellness

29:58 Psychedelics and Neuroplasticity

32:59 Exploring the Unique Properties of Psilomethoxin

35:32 The Healing Potential of Psychedelics for Veterans

38:53 Understanding the Sonoran Desert Toad and 5-MeO-DMT

41:26 Synergies Between Psychedelics and Other Natural Substances

44:38 The Future of Psychedelic Accessibility

47:27 Citizen Science and Home Brewing Psychedelics

Transcript

Psilo Toad (00:00.512)
What?

Psilo Toad (00:05.952)
Hmm.

Psilo Toad (00:09.958)
Alright, what’s up everybody? Welcome back to the second episode of the Tryptamine Cowboy Chronicles here on the Sacred Synthesis Podcast. I am your host, Gabriel Hardy, and I am joined by two founders of the Sacred Synthesis, Ben and Ian. So, what’s up guys? It’s the second episode. Really, really excited to be here to kind of start things off in the sort of like theme of the episode, the topic that I want to dive into.

into with you guys today is veteran trauma, which there’s obviously a lot to unpack there, but just to kind of like start things off for this episode, Ian, let’s start with you. Ian, could you kind of tell us like your story of, your service in the military and then the trauma involved with that and then your path to healing?

Ian + Ben (00:42.688)
Okay.

Ian + Ben (01:07.053)
Sure, sure. I think I’ll just preface it by saying that the biggest correlator they’ve found to developing PTSD from trauma in the military is childhood trauma. And then on top of that you get some TBI from sports concussions and fights thrown in. But that’s the biggest correlator. Childhood, under -resolved childhood trauma leads to, you know, wartime trauma.

And so, yeah, for me, I grew up in Hawaii, went to West Point, was a Black Hawk pilot in the army and started rotating down to Panama and run up for the invasion almost two years before in spring of 88. And yeah, so it was the mission to de -regime change Noriega after the Colombians started paying him because he was on our payroll also.

So, and then right after I was on terminal leave, my unit, you know, I’ve been on terminal leave a month or so, my unit was deployed up to Humboldt to do drug eradication. So I really came up in the drug war kind of stuff. And, you know, I saw how futile it was. And yeah, I didn’t appreciate being used that way as a U .S. military, right, to do extra territorial drug enforcement.

But I got out the army, moved to Austin, Texas, became a pharmaceutical rep for Pfizer. I saw that up close and personal. They were launching all the new SSRIs and synthetic opiates. And then went to law school. We got married before law school, went to law school, moved back to Austin, raised a family, did corporate America, you know, for 20 years. And yeah, in 2014, I first met veterans at the first Veteran Cannabis PTSD Gathering.

here in Austin, Texas for the state anyway. And I was like, I’ve never heard words like trauma or PTSD or any of that stuff really. And all of a I was like, why is this guy’s talking making me cry? I’ve got some of this stuff inside of me that I need to work on, my childhood trauma, my veteran trauma. And I knew growing up in Hawaii, I’d used mushrooms in Hawaii, cannabis.

Ian + Ben (03:30.354)
I knew that those really go to the natural stuff, go back to the earth. had never been prescribed any meds while I was in military or after. yeah, so I started using cannabis and more regularly I was using it once a week before then to help my pain stuff. And then it was also starting to help my other things like nightmares and panic attacks and anxiety attacks and those kinds of things.

And so, yeah, I just dove all the way in and, know, ayahuasca and five meo-DMT and iboga and all that. And really been doing that ever since, working on my own self, working with other veterans, with first responders, with other people. And just, yeah, really just exemplar shift. The medicines that work for me, they continue to work for me. I continue to work them into my life and then I want…

If any of that is useful to other people, I want to share that with other people so they can benefit from the experience and make simpler, more efficient, safer, accelerate their own healing process.

Psilo Toad (04:44.736)
Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, Ben, thank you for that in. Ben, could you kind of like give us your story now?

Ian + Ben (04:51.164)
Hmm. Yeah, so. What should I do again? My parents split up when I was younger and I went through the normal like complicated childhood. My both my parents were alcoholics and drug users and. So I grew up sort of like disjointed, disconnected and my family sort of fell apart.

as I was getting older and then when I was in college, just after college, my mom got diagnosed with cancer. And that was like a four year battle of us, of my family, like in her, trying to beat it, but ultimately, know, God gets what God wants in that way. yeah, so I turned into an alcoholic. And from that moment on, was like,

A few years of raging, just no good in my life, and decided I wanted to join the Army. Because it was something my mom never wanted me to do. She’s like, don’t join the service. I wanted to join the Navy. My uncle’s in the Navy. So wanted to join the Navy, but she said no, no, no, and so I didn’t. I went to college and played some football. And this was my chance to defy her.

She couldn’t say no now. So I went for it and it was amazing. I the Army, three months later I get Sam pregnant, which was perfect because it was like, this is a great setup for this thing. I couldn’t have planned it better any other way. then so I went through basic training and I got to leave just in time to make it

well, to miss my son’s birth by a few hours. But he was born that day, Maximus, the day I graduated basic training. And so the Army was a blessing. I deployed two months after getting into my first unit and left my wife home with a single baby, so she grew up really fast. And I learned what the Army was all about and progressed through the ranks, became a recruiter. And that’s when it all sort of started collapsing.

Ian + Ben (07:18.232)
because I got back into like a civilian speed, right? And I was on super high up tempo, know, I was in like a recombatoon and like just, I was a high performer. I liked doing my job. I liked to do the work, but it was like, I was so busy. So when I got to recruiting, was like, all this stuff that I’ve been like, not running away from, but just too busy to acknowledge and to process started to come up.

connections to my childhood, connections to like rejection, connections to like my emotional pains that I’ve gone through in my childhood and then also, you know, some family stuff. And so, yeah, I started to like dwell and not do well at all. My family life started to fall apart and I was like, I would find myself in my like, in my…

office, like with my windows, just like watching my kids play and like never wanted to play with them. I’m like, I don’t deserve it. You know, that’s what I was thought. That’s what I thought then. I was like, I do all the work so they can play. I don’t deserve to play because I’m doing all the work. You know, I was like had my things inverted at the time. And yeah, so I found, I remembered a mushroom experience. It was weird. Cause I think I read the John Hopkins article that I think it published in 20 or the study they did in 2016. And I think I read that.

I was just Googling on the internet stuff and it popped up so I read it. like, shit, I showed my wife. I’m like, look at this, check this out. Like it seems to work. So I don’t know what it’s going to do, but yeah. So I started working with mushrooms a lot, like monthly. And that’s when I got really curious about consciousness and like what it all means. Cause I like, went through my process, like the medicine took me through all the layers of my identity.

that were like hung up on things and like helped me to resolve them, helped me to not have to carry the thing so then I can be more myself and more connected to who I am. which is like, the truth is like what makes me comfortable, what makes me happy. And I think that’s essence of all of us. And so I started to understand that these medicines could help us unpack all those things and bring us into being in the now and being able to be in the present because that’s where all the gifts are.

Ian + Ben (09:42.921)
And so I got, started like, you know, I was just really excited about what’s possible. So I’ve been doing that ever since. Like I’ve been working with veterans and ceremony, serving the medicines and we started a church obviously. so like my, I’ve given my own, I’ve given my own identity away to my purpose. You know, like I don’t, I don’t have these like,

It’s like I’m hanging up on the past, but it’s like the purpose replaces all the doubt, you know, for me. And so it keeps me moving in a direction where, because I know this is like something, I wanna win this, like I wanna win this. I believe we can, but it’s gonna take like more than my lifetime to win this problem, to stop veteran suicide. so, but I’m going, that’s what I left the Army to do, you know?

Cause I’m still in service, like I still did that. didn’t, I didn’t know there’s no undo that. There’s no, so to me, because I, know, what else? Otherwise, what are we doing? everyone has their own thing, right? Everyone has their own purpose and their own feeling. And this is mine and that’s, and that’s what keeps me driven. So yeah. And I think that, that mindset, the ability to have a way to organize oneself and like, in a way that like,

helps people go in the direction of their wishes is important to teach. And so that’s what we do, that’s what I do in these works, right? In these ceremonies, retreats, excuse me. So we help get people into a way where they can organize themselves to move in the direction that they choose and they feel good about and let go of all those other things, right? So yeah, my experiences become my work, essentially.

Psilo Toad (11:39.57)
Yeah, that’s beautiful, man. I appreciate you sharing that. I appreciate hearing both of y ‘all’s story. I think that the audience will as well. I think a lot of people are going to be able to sort of relate to you guys with those stories that you just shared, but throughout this episode, the rest of this episode as well. So.

just kind of like framing all of this, like, you know, this feeling that both of you described, which of course was unique to both of you and is unique to each individual, each veteran that deals with the sort of trauma and the sort of mental health issues that come with that. Like how, based on, I guess you can say statistics, but also like your sort of anecdotal experience, you know, yourself and people that you know within your own communities, like how prevalent

is the sort of mental health issues within the veteran community.

Ian + Ben (12:35.261)
Well, I mean, it’s really a crisis right now. You know the numbers like anywhere. University of Alabama says like 16 ,000 a year are killing themselves. And so maybe more with all the substance, intentional substance over substance use, et cetera. So, you

For us, like for, I don’t want say for me, like, yeah, that’s what we have these hikes for. It’s like an open door for veterans that are wanting to find a community that can help them.

expand their mind, their consciousness, really realign with nature and realign with purpose of good. you know, it’s the same thing with the veteran story. It’s like we go to this program through basic training and then like extreme cultural programming, right? It’s like complete cultural programming. So it’s like a whole overlay that people experience for a number of years and then they leave.

And it’s like the world is a different place. many, many of, not everyone of course, but there’s a large number that failed to integrate that, to leave the old and be able to change into the new, right? That’s what a child does. A child knows instantaneously, that’s why he’s always moving and stuff, because they’re casting away the old frame and making new shell, making new movement. Reptiles do it. And so it’s all, so,

Yeah, some people are able to move through that easily. They’re much more easily adaptable. Some people linger and it holds on, right? And so those are the people that are at risk that need or more suited for these modalities because they help move the energy. They help move and transform, right? We talk about like transmuting energy and moving and energy, it can change states and that’s what we’re talking about. And I think that’s…

Ian + Ben (14:41.112)
Yeah, that’s it. It’s an important place at this moment and what’s needed.

Psilo Toad (14:46.91)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, when you think about it, the medicine is already sort of here, but like Ian said the other day, it’s essentially at this point being held up by bureaucratic nonsense, at least getting it to people accessibly at scale, things like that. So what…

And I know a lot of this is, I don’t want say common knowledge, it’s some of the basic, just to kind of help structure and frame all of this as well. What are some of the sort of like, know, people, veterans right now aren’t able to get these psychedelic medicines super, it’s not super accessible to them. So what is sort of being offered to them in place of that, and why is that falling short of helping them?

Ian + Ben (15:40.249)
Sure. Well, right now, the government’s saying 2028 for mushrooms. And obviously there was a lot of hope in MDMA happening this year. And now that it hasn’t happened, it looks like it could be two to three to four years, you know, right? But to the same time as mushrooms before MDMA could get approved. And so, well, in 2014, when Colorado had…

recreational cannabis, right, the first state to do that. You have a lot of veterans go there. A lot of veterans became cannabis refugees because cannabis was a primary medicine to help them. they moved out to Colorado, people like Matt Kahl you know, our passed brother and God bless him. He moved from North Carolina to Colorado in 2014.

And then he was one of the people that led all those decriminalization efforts, started with Denver, now they’re in the whole state, right, for psychedelics. so now Colorado is a place that really, like, use of all psychedelics, the classics and things along. And you can serve them to people. Yeah. So I think what veterans have done is just like they did in the military, move around to different places to find more solutions.

I find where the rules could support them and then community and that’s the key thing that Ben and I know is that these medicines can do amazing things and yet if you don’t have the community container support system so that people can integrate that it can end up being counterproductive. So right now you have a lot of veterans that are doing all this advocacy work like to change the rules but we can’t wait.

The rules to change to help the people since like Ben said 16 ,000 a year that’s 44 a day. About 25 % of people who serving in the military get PTSD so the numbers of people that this is affecting is millions and they’re giving people drugs that the side effects of the drugs are weight gain, suicidal ideation, sexual dysfunction, and more anxiety or depression.

Ian + Ben (17:57.417)
the source of the suicidal ideation. So the drugs they’ve been given are just numbing them out instead of helping to keep them progressing along in their possible integration. veterans finding that these natural medicines can be useful to them in community where it’s safe and they can be shared, that’s what everyone’s trying to figure out. Some people are going out of the country to do that, we know, and a lot of those people

at can become legal advocates, right? They say, hey, did ayahuasca in Peru and it helps veterans or I did, you know, toad in Iboga in Mexico. Yeah, that’s the big challenge. The place you can go like with our hikes where, you know, just, guy just joined us this morning. He was a Marine in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then he did what, like eight years of government contract work. And that’s of anything numbers wise more intense than anything else on average.

because those guys are getting paid to be mercenaries and they’re gonna be front lines. And yeah, he can’t go to some other group of people and start talking to those people about what he did and experienced because they’re just like, they can’t relate. But for us, we’re like, dude, we get it. And everything is possible as far as working through these things. yeah.

They took a little mushroom and went on a little hike. Yeah, so he joined us with some of our mush rooms and our sacrament. Yeah.

So I have a data point to use. Veterans, male veterans, which is 24 % of the adult male population are veterans, a quarter. Veterans who serve post -9 -11, right? So Desert Storm and then Iraq II and then Afghanistan are 70 times more likely than the general male populace to have low testosterone. So.

Ian + Ben (20:00.785)
When you are in high stress environments over a long period of time, you just get adrenal fatigue and your adrenal glands shut down and your backup is your reproductive glands. So if you cook your adrenals and then they give you SSRIs that cause sexual dysfunction, yeah. I mean, amongst other things, you just want to kill yourself. So the things people are giving people are not.

helping them so we work a lot of people trying to get off stuff that they got on in the way of pharmaceuticals.

Psilo Toad (20:37.32)
Yeah, it sounds like this sort of nasty, vicious cycle that a lot of people end up in with it. And I’ve seen it personally with people that I know and love. when you think about the sacrament, silent methoxin, and just psychedelics in general, why do you guys think it is that

those psychedelic drugs are so efficacious in comparison to not only, of course, all of these sort of modern medicine modalities that are currently failing us miserably, but also it just seems like in the grand sphere of a lot of different holistic health practices, there is a lot of them that are efficacious for their different use cases, their own unique use cases.

you know, that’s great. But it just seems like, like I said generally, psychedelic drugs when used properly, safely, intentionally, just hold this really sort potent potential, unlike almost anything else. So why do you guys think that that is?

Ian + Ben (21:51.876)
think it’s because it’s how we got here to begin with. If you agree with the stone -dape theory, which it seems to make a lot of sense just by the experience of using these and how it’s similar in thinking about the curiosities and space that these medicines, especially mushrooms, create.

Yeah, so I think that we’ve been using them in order to develop our consciousness since the very beginning. Like we’re all these plants and everything has an effect on our consciousness and that, you know, we share in like sort of the basic building blocks. so while we take these things and we take these, these medicines, it’s changing our epigenetics. our, our growth expression changes and it’s sort of like,

that’s helping us adapt, think, the trans -unit things. And so we’ve been using these medicines to do this stuff since forever. And we see ritualistic ways, obviously, in like 13 ,000 years, or 10 to 13 ,000 years ago in North Africa, but that was what we put about before that. There’s no records, but we know it’s always been used. so I think that’s, it radically rewires us back into our nature, into our nature, where we

Simple as that.

Yeah, I mean we have 20 essential amino acids. There’s what, six or eight of them. We don’t make ourselves right. We have to have an external source for them. One of those is tryptophan, right? Or we call it L -tryptophan. You decarb tryptophan, you get tryptamine. Then you start adding some methyl groups on it, you get dimethyltryptamine. Right, you add a five methoxy group on it, you get five.

Ian + Ben (23:48.269)
Dimethyltryptamine you add a four hydroxyl you get Psilocin four hydroxyl Dimethyltryptamine so yeah our body makes DMT it makes five MEO so this is just this is our natural chemistry our natural biosynthetic pathways and that’s why they work and that’s why unless somebody can patent them they’re not gonna make drugs right that use that skeleton they’re gonna make SSRIs right because they can make some frankenpharma

and it’s unique and then they can get a patent on it. franken psychedelics. Yeah, or some franken psychedelics, exactly. Where they want to take out the hallucinogenic part. They want to take the trip out of the psychedelic. That’s like taking the trip out of tryptamine. It doesn’t work that way. You just get mean.

Psilo Toad (24:30.099)
it

Ian + Ben (24:46.015)
back we’re back yeah I think

Psilo Toad (24:49.568)
Hold up just a second here. I’m gonna stop this and then restart it because that incoming call, I’ve had that mess up the recording before where it didn’t record the rest of it. So I’m gonna stop it. I’m gonna stop it and then we’ll hit record again and continue right there where we’re at. Yeah.

Ian + Ben (25:02.416)
Got it.

Psilo Toad (00:00.344)
Awesome. Okay, please continue.

Ian + Ben (00:02.228)
Yeah, I think I was just saying right these things work because they’re part of the natural chemistry and our bodies make these substances right our bodies make 5 -MeO DMT and DMT and so Connecting to these natural -based sources of them in nature They just fit right in because they’re using the same biosynthetic pathways so I mean, that’s why they both work and they’re connected into nature and but there’s no incentive to

have drugs that can be patented. So these drug companies make all these franken pharma meds so they can patent them. That’s it.

Psilo Toad (00:40.886)
Yeah, and it’s really crazy to me these sort of headache that we’re going through as a society just trying to get psychedelics legalized. The entire fiasco that it’s become is somewhat hilarious because like I said earlier, there are medicines here, we all know it, just being held up by bureaucratic nonsense. When you look at something like SSRIs like you guys alluded to, it’s like…

Okay, you know, we’re having to like play the carrot on the stick game with psychedelics, but with SSRIs, you know, there’s this long list of side effects. And I put it in quotations there because like, if something that you take makes you have a certain effect, it’s not like just a side effect, it’s an effect that the drug has on you, right?

You know, and if you were to ask people and tell people before you prescribe them SSRIs and a lot of these other medications, like if you were to say, okay, here’s this SSRI, here’s what it can potentially do, but also like it has the potential to, like you guys said, like you can’t reach an orgasm, you can’t have a psychedelic experience now. You know, like I think a lot of people, you really laid it out for them like that, honestly, transparently would probably not want to take these

things. So yeah, one thing that I’ve experienced, I don’t know if you guys have experienced this, but I’ve described this to other people, both psilocybin and the sacrament to me, there’s this feeling with it where…

Kind like you were describing Ian, it seems to harmonize in my body. It feels very natural, but it almost feels like this nutrient that my brain really appreciates having. You know what I’m saying? I don’t know if you guys have ever experienced that.

Ian + Ben (02:33.489)
Yeah, think that’s calling people don’t play and they sit behind a keyboard way too long they’re like, my god They run outside and run around in nature play and they’re like man. I’m full of endocannabinoids and natural psychedelics Right on our own. So yeah, I Think that’s just tuning back into that and it’s immediately accessible but people shut down those systems and they can Forget what it’s like or these medicines can just numb you out

Yeah, that’s you know, right? There’s people that we know takes take psychedelics, but they’ve Been on SSRIs for 15 years and they’re like dude How come I have to take so many mushrooms to feel the effect? It’s like well because you were on SSRIs for 15 years. Yeah got it out Well, that’s like that helps very important. Yeah, so that’s what this journey sort of me unpack The psychedelics taught it to me, but like obviously we can cut people should listen like that helps is number one thing and most most important thing

like take care of your gut. So that’s where everything comes from. All the neurotransmitters that your brain uses, like you have to get them from your gut, get them from your food. So if you put good stuff in there and treat it well, it’s gonna treat you nice. And then when you use these medicines, you can like, you know, really go and like be in space and with that, with less physical, physiological trauma to sort through, you know, because when like you repatterning the mind and the experiences are much more.

Psilo Toad (03:55.511)
Yeah.

Ian + Ben (04:01.005)
in the way of whatever you’re looking for.

Psilo Toad (04:01.398)
Yeah. Now, I really agree with what you’re saying there about the gut. Because I’ve experienced it myself. I think it’s really important you can feel it. They say it’s the second brain. The science is there to sort of back up with what you’re saying. I think almost any human being can intuitively feel and has felt what you’re saying about the gut and how important that is to your overall mental health. what’s really interesting there in a

little correlation, a thing that I want to draw there is like, you know, a lot of people have described that psilocybin seems to sort of hold like these, these healing and anti -inflammatory properties for their guts, their gut. And I’ve also heard other people describe this about psilomethoxin. In fact, one of our church members was on the podcast, name was Kevin. He says it’s one of his, one of the most healing.

Ian + Ben (04:45.092)
Yeah.

Psilo Toad (04:57.426)
Aspects of the sacrament to him. It’s other reasons too, but he really honed in on that like the sort of like Anti -inflammatory effect that it has on his gut. I’ve also experienced this with both with both psilocybin and psilomethoxin It’s not even I just have experienced this I experienced this every single time I take it even if it’s at a micro dose or a macro dose this it seems to Be really good for my gut. So like do you guys have you guys experienced that and do know what’s going on there?

Ian + Ben (05:26.669)
Sure, sure. So right we now know there’s a vagus nerve that connects our gut to our brain and they didn’t number it so they have to call it zero. So was nerve zero and like Ben said, right, we make up to 90 % of our serotonin in our gut. Yeah, and diseases too can travel up the same nerve. The neurotransmitters are in our gut and then they’re just sending more signals up to the brain. so yeah, so with these tryptamine psychedelics.

you have reduction in neuroinflammation and you have increases in neurogenesis, neuron growth, new neuro growth, and then neuroplasticity, which the brain is in a more flexible state with your patterns and your programs that you can live adjust and make adjustments and say, I have a different perspective on that now. And you can literally rewire your brain. And like Ben said, know, gut health is the number one. So yeah, if your gut health is bad, you’re putting

psychedelics into this can make things worse that’s why all these traditional folks that are offering these medicines they do it in a dieta where they’re controlling your diet right controlling what you put into your body so you can really get in tune with your gut and get in tune with the interface of your digestion whereas most of these plants anyway are going into so yeah

Your gut knows best. So you got the number of neurons in your gut the same number as about a cat brain you have about 10 ,000 neurons in your heart in the back of your heart for all the biomimicry right, you know empathy of movement you write and And then yeah, we got a lot of neurons up here in the brain, but we overemphasize that at the expense of these other Neural hormonal systems that are in one they’re more tied to survival. They’re more you know, I’m saying like

making quick decisions, so we’ve got to take care of those even more versus like I can analyze everything up in my brain. That’s not the only way to think. Yeah, and so the tie in with guts, especially with like, I can go in like 5 -Meo-DMT, it effectuates, it agonizes the vagus nerve. It chills it out, basically like relaxes it so it’s not in like fire mode. And that’s part of that like…

Ian + Ben (07:48.924)
application so like you can do that with breath too. You know that’s what breath work sort of alters some people someone’s experience because you’re really directly affecting the vagus nerve. And so yeah these medicines they they they do that they effectuate the change at that level. Yeah and I was in serotonin serotonergic medicines. Cannabis can include in this as well but they generally reduce the core basal temperature right and so that’s a lot of what they’re doing.

is when people say they’re chilling me out, they’re literally chilling you out. A bunch of people weren’t wearing hoodies in the daytime in Florida. know, it might be true.

Psilo Toad (08:23.195)
interesting

That… That’s me, man. That is crazy that you say that because every single time I get really chilly.

Ian + Ben (08:34.227)
Yeah, because you turn off your on edge anymore. You’re like chill like you don’t have to be like activated, right? So it’s just we know literally when you’re when you’re angry, you get you get heated, right? don’t know. I get angry. It’s like I got really angry. I can’t even think I can’t even talk. I’m like, well, I’m super relaxed. That’s being able to be there is like that’s what I’m closer to God. I’m like, there you are. You are. Yeah, I mean, because that’s where that’s where that’s that’s relaxing.

Psilo Toad (08:37.836)
Yeah

Psilo Toad (08:56.558)
Right.

You

Ian + Ben (09:03.544)
into and feeling into the environment situations in life. Like that’s where you can be creation. Like for me, I believe that like God is Creator God is Creator. And so like, I’m a creator, we all are all of us. We’re all like just like little fractals of, of that. That that’d a great beginning. And so yeah, I noticed that that’s part of the part of the process is when you’re chill, and you’re calm and you’re not.

Psilo Toad (09:03.874)
Mhm.

Psilo Toad (09:22.254)
Mm

Ian + Ben (09:33.538)
in a sympathetic nervous system, you can be more in creation mode where it’s like, ooh, what do I wanna do next week? What kind of life do I wanna have? What do I wanna paint my walls? Whatever. In the mindset of just imagining your life in the future, because then it’s like you can untie the past from that. Because otherwise you have ruminating thoughts, but conquering that, it’s like, start planning stuff.

Psilo Toad (09:52.654)
.

Psilo Toad (09:58.304)
Yeah, it seems like both psychedelic experiences and like almost any form of meditation seem to increase my creativity and I think a big part of that is because both of those, all of those things seem to sort of help empty me out in a way where it seems like, and I think we brought this up in the last episode, yeah, but it seems like that process of emptying myself out seems to open me up for more…

like creator gifts ideas, like just kind of get implanted and dropped in there. okay, so with Psilomethoxin with the sacrament, a lot of people, myself included, report that it seems to possess its own unique potential therapeutic properties, right?

What would you guys say makes Psilomethoxin unique for healing veteran trauma and just trauma in general?

Ian + Ben (11:01.719)
Yeah, well

I think one is like a low dose. It really works in the body really well.

know, like lingering pain, back pain, knee pain, pain, shoulder pain, veteran, veterans, you know, shoulder, great, great majority of that, those things, but all I mean, all human beings that work in a way where they use their body excessively. The, the properties of Psilomethoxin help to seem to help to make the drag

and the pain much more manageable. And then also inflammation seems to be like amazing. when you, the first member of the church was like he had shrapnel on his body. I mean, I’ve this story a bunch of times, like he had shrapnel on his body and he was just in pain all the time, always. And so after talking to him a bunch, like understanding like pain is some of, and much of what causes

mental health issues. Because if you’re in constant ruminating pain, it doesn’t go away. It’s up and down, it’s up and down, but it’s always there. It causes depression, it causes anxiety, it causes hyper -attentiveness. There’s a cascade of effects. And so I was like, I realized, I’m like, a lot of this is in the body. A lot of this is in the body. So once he worked with it, and he was like free, know, squatting down, like, my God, this is amazing. So I was like,

Ian + Ben (12:45.282)
It made sense to me. I don’t know psilocybin has a similar effect psilocybin super anti -inflammatory like I noticed that and I use it when I have like joint issues, too But Yeah, it doesn’t it didn’t it didn’t seem to have the same like appearance, you know, and so was like, okay This is really awesome. It’s really excellent because it’s like physiologically Comforting and there’s no interference here at all. And so I mean, you know

We had worked with it up to, at that time, up to a gram and a half. And there’s no, there was no, in this recipe, there’s no visual overlays. Like we were at a, we at a veteran’s brewery on Dripping Springs. They’re like, okay, this is pretty cool. And it felt amazing, like connected in this fluid. Like everything was connected, it didn’t, it wasn’t complex. Like normally in that environment, I’d be like, just, you know.

doing my normal scan, my normal like check my parameters. that was like, I was just like, okay, I’m here. This is great. This is awesome. So, you know, had that the byproduct of providing such like a comfortable level of, of, of vigilance. I was like, okay, this is great. This is great. This is a great, great medicine for that. So like this is just my experience, like what, what I believe in that way, you know, it’s like psilocybin is great, but it’s like, it’s introspective. It’s it’s cause it’s

You’re going to go and remember your stories and you’re going to experience some memories and some things, let go of some things and then see what you need to see and things are going come through that need to come through. And this is more of like crystal clean. There’s not really like a storied experience going through these medicines a lot of times. It’s like clearing it out for your own story to emerge in that way. Yeah, I think it’s the 5 -HT1A and 5 -HT2A right that everyone’s

learning about and Robert Carhart -Harris wrote that paper, The Tale of the Two Receptors. It looks like the 5 -HT2A is for actively coping. So you need to change your perspective to be more healthy. And then the 5 -HT1A is the passive coping, where you need to accept things as they are, because otherwise the resistance is detrimental to your health.

Ian + Ben (15:10.88)
So that’s kind of how we drive with those things, right? And we’re in harmony. Yeah, exactly. So the classic psychedelics, they’re showing you, if you see your life and the things that happen to from this new perspective, you can gain healing through that. And then the 5 -HT1 activation, where 5 -MEO and Psilomethoxin are working, that’s allowing you to have energy and accept what is without having to try to change it, where you can surrender to it. Now, and if you’re safe, just like with…

with 5 -HT2A when you’re safe, that works for you. You know what mean? But when you’re not safe, then all bets are off. And your ego’s gonna say, why did you change so much? Or why are you accepting things as they are? So that’s why with these compounds, they have an affinity for the 5 -HT1A receptor. And agonizing that receptor is what slows the vagus nerve. So it works in that way. That’s why Psilomethoxin works.

without a tolerance throughout the day. So you can re -dose it multiple times and it’s like, you can get the same sort of experience four or five hours later. the 5 -HT1A is more rapidly metabolized out. And that’ll tell you, goes down to when you take the inhale, that’s 5 -HT2 activation. So the in -breath is slightly activated to the system. And then the out -breath, your 5 -HT1A where you’re activating the Parasympathetic system.

which that’s the relaxing part. And in general, if your out breath then is longer than your in breath, then you’re chilled out. And that’s the breath pattern to allow for meditation or more relaxation. And so again, you still gotta be safe in all your environment, but then if you antagonize the 5 -HT1A more and you got the good breathing, yeah, can self -soothe, you can show yourself out.

Psilo Toad (17:07.468)
really really interesting that lines up with my own personal experience i guess you know other other anecdotes you know what other people had to say

Ian + Ben (17:18.684)
Let me drop in one last one that fits in there too. the 5HT1A, that’s where the freeze or collapse response happens, okay? And the 5HT2A is where the fight or flight. So people can kind of get their minds around that. It’s like the 5HT2A is gonna help you fight or flight. You need to run away from the thing or see it in a new way to fight it or realize that you have nothing to fight. Then the 5HT1A is there’s nowhere to go. You can’t run away.

Psilo Toad (17:28.92)
Mm -hmm.

Ian + Ben (17:47.611)
have to accept things as they are and freeze or collapse you know to me or just stand in mountain pose and accept things. Beam me out of here. So that’s when the antelope gets chased by the lion and is about to die right then it just dumps a bunch of 5 -MeO because it’s like my ego resistance is just gonna make things suck right now go ahead and eat me but if the lion’s not holding on too tight bam 5 -HT2A DMT

Look, I’m a flying elf. jump right out of that line. Who’s going to eat me? And I’m making rainbows in the sky. You’re never getting me again there, Lion.

Psilo Toad (18:22.942)
Okay, have you guys found any sort of really interesting synergies, like interesting combinations of Psilomethoxin and the sacrament with other sacramental tools, I’ll say.

Ian + Ben (18:38.671)
Yeah, well, with some thoughts, why I mean, I work with it as like a facilitator, the act, I don’t know what they call them these days. As a guide, and I work with it while while while serving medicine. It’s really, it’s really nice. It’s me in that vibration that state and then really good ability to support but also super clear. And the anti inflammatory effects right because

Psilo Toad (18:46.74)
you know

Ian + Ben (19:06.616)
I’m very active. I’m up, I’m moving around, I’m playing music and stuff. So it’s really good in that way. It’s keep me going.

I really like it with Santa Maria aka cannabis. getting some of more relaxing aspects of the good health, but the lack of pain stuff Ben’s talking about, just like when you’re hiking four or six miles, you’re just gliding. So yeah, I know some of these guys have done more work with the Psilomethoxin sacrament and regular mushrooms, you know what I mean? like higher doses, but yeah.

Psilo Toad (19:44.524)
you

Ian + Ben (19:48.323)
today on the hike I took like half a gram, it’s like really nice. Really nice, just really really nice.

Psilo Toad (19:52.099)
Yeah.

I really enjoy like right kind of what you said Ben like about half a gram maybe a gram, gram and a half usually between half a gram like half a gram to like gram and a half is like my hiking dose with the sacrament. I’m gonna

Ian + Ben (20:08.768)
Well, yeah, but I get to when I get to the higher dose I’m like I’m always in unity consciousness. I’m like there’s a hiking group. I’m just like Home you’d be like I can go I can go, you know six eight hours of dancing so

Psilo Toad (20:14.88)
Yeah.

Psilo Toad (20:19.768)
Yeah, I think…

Psilo Toad (20:26.784)
You

Psilo Toad (20:34.991)
I’m gonna send you guys some gummies. There’s something really interesting and I thought about this the other day and I was like I need to drop this on Ben and Ian but I think this is a perfect opportunity but I love the combination of some blue lotus extract and the sacrament.

Ian + Ben (20:39.084)
Yeah.

Ian + Ben (20:54.657)
Yeah

Psilo Toad (20:55.97)
There’s something really interesting about that. Blue Lotus is, I mean it’s legal, but yeah.

Ian + Ben (21:03.767)
Yeah, it worked with Blue Lotus by itself.

Psilo Toad (21:06.368)
Yeah, and a lot of people have worked with it and a lot of people make different smoke blends with it, a lot of people make teas with it. I’ve tried that before and I never found those routes of administration super efficacious for me, but trying oral doses of Blue Lotus extract, of course, the extract having a higher concentration of some of those active alkaloids like the apomorphine and nuciferin, I honestly believe Blue Lotus is one of the best synergistic tool things.

out there ever. Like it seems to synergize with just about everything. seemed any psychedelic that I’ve tried it with, it makes the experience more empathogenic. Same thing with cannabis. It’s really interesting to use in meditation, but there’s a really interesting synergy between blue lotus. seems like to me personally and the sacrament, like where, like I said, these large doses of it, of the extract orally seem to generally be very lovey -dovey, very empathogenic, almost like a MDMA

light.

Ian + Ben (22:06.611)
Bye, then.

Ian + Ben (22:11.647)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ian + Ben (22:22.943)
Yeah.

Ian + Ben (22:29.78)
Yummy.

Psilo Toad (22:35.936)
thing that I always appreciated psilocybin for and still do to this day is whenever I vaporize dimethyltryptamine, just regular NN dimethyltryptamine, not 5 -MeO, whenever I do that, I find that the way that I generally like to do that…

Is to sort of take somewhere between like a gram or two a lighter dose of psilocybin To kind of bridge that gap and get like one foot in that other place before I blast off It’s this whole sort of like own ritualized thing that I’ve I’ve come up with over the years for myself But I really enjoyed Psilomethoxin for that as well, too It seems to be very useful for me bridging that gap. So those are just some things I wanted to lay out there for you guys and like the audience of some interesting Combinations that I

with the sacrament.

Ian + Ben (23:24.5)
Yeah, I’ll just say real quick, Gabe, that Psilomethoxin seems to play with other psychedelics well, right? And even 5 -O -Mio, like Ben’s talking about, where people are using it to continue the kind of 5 -O -Mio effect that’s moved out over a longer time period. So there’s already people using it, giving people Bufo in the morning.

and then some with Psilomethoxin sacrament in the afternoon just to kind of keep the afterglow going for a while. Create a nice whatever you like, off ramp and down slope. I think it’s all brilliant. I think we need to live in a world where these natural medicines are accessible. Yeah, at the farmer’s market. I trust Gabe to grow me some good mushrooms because he’s taking them himself.

Psilo Toad (24:16.141)
Yeah

Ian + Ben (24:21.619)
And that’s why he looks so good at the farmer’s market while I went over to his booth. So, yeah. Why shouldn’t natural medicine be grown at home? Do these things grow in a manufacturing plant?

Psilo Toad (24:28.138)
Yeah, yeah, brother

Psilo Toad (24:36.706)
Yeah, you know, sort of like a big core ethos of this series is, and the sacred synthesis itself is we do want to bring, you know, Psilomethoxin this psychedelic sacrament, mental tool, you know, to people at scale. But right now we’re working within a certain current framework.

What are the sort of like things that we do with veterans? It’s like some of the initiatives. This is the work that you guys do.

Ian + Ben (25:14.053)
Well, you know, personally, I just, I do, work with the Illuminating Co. doing ceremonies or retreats and it’s all integrated with veterans. And then yeah, with the, with the, with the church itself specifically, there’s no, there’s not any current programs that we have that are specific to veterans.

Yeah, just the veterans are just really population. That’s thing is it’s like what’s the target of truly like the target of like how we’re crafting creating everything anyway in that way. So it’s like it’s not necessarily a veteran program. It’s just like it’s aimed towards getting veterans relief period like that is that is that is the essence of the creation of this church. That’s why we chased the psalm of thoughts and that’s why we’re doing all of this work is for that reason. And so yeah.

Psilo Toad (25:42.424)
you

Psilo Toad (26:01.507)
Yeah.

Ian + Ben (26:08.56)
It’s very interesting. It’s a complicated road. We’ve gone through so many credit card processors. It’s interesting, right? And so we’ve made progress, thankfully, because it’s you know, diligent work, but the system itself isn’t designed for what we’re doing to operate. It’s just not in that way. And so we’re trying to make new rules and figure things out as we go forward, because it’s super vital that people have access to

Psilo Toad (26:19.096)
Mm -hmm.

Ian + Ben (26:38.415)
connect with whatever their spiritual belief is using plants and fungi and animals and breathing. It’s all the same. It’s all the same. came from the service. So we should have access to it. what we’re doing with this is like, Psilomethoxin is like the crown jewel of these compounds, I believe.

and in that way because we can, we have a way to commercialize it without having to wait 10 years. And, you know, it’s really effectuous, effectuous, effectuous. Efficacious. It’s really, it’s efficacious. Like it works, it works. And it seems to have a very, a very low risk profile and very high, very high success rate. And it’d just be useful as a,

compound. you know, yeah, it’s basically we shaped everything around the cause of veterans. Like that’s the, that is the target.

Psilo Toad (27:48.59)
And also, brought to scale, be extremely, once again, accessible to everybody and affordable too. It’s not gonna be this massive, either I have to have great insurance or hope my insurance covers it, or still have a good big copay, and or just pay a bunch out of pocket. It’s no, like, if I can scrape together 40, you know.

Ian + Ben (28:00.013)
Yes.

Ian + Ben (28:14.988)
I don’t yeah, I think like the ideal if you think like dream world I think that I wouldn’t want people to pay over 60 bucks a month for over 50 bucks a month for medicine so like what we’re we’re aiming to get to that point with with the the models that were that were implementing when with the yeast production because of the cost efficiency of producing it in yeast at scale so we can have that wheat

Psilo Toad (28:19.65)
Yeah.

Ian + Ben (28:44.46)
I think the market should be 50 bucks a month. That’s my belief. People shouldn’t have, think about it as mental health for 30 days, dollar whatever, there’s $1 .33 a day. There’s no, people deserve access to that level of care if they’d like it. I think it’s, pharmaceutical companies are coming into psychedelics, it’s all getting, it’s all

driven by, it’s all driven by capital and capital has to move. And so they have incentives to create pricing structures, benefit and satisfy those needs. so we’re a direction that people approach and we want to have people have access to medicines without having to be behind a $1 price tag for one and a half grams, like in other places in states.

It’s gotta be affordable like super fucking affordable Yeah, I think bad Ben wants to beat the copay that people make for their expensive SSRIs because that’s what you’re competing against right you like that good person’s like I got the job to have it sucks because a third of people aren’t happy in their job so I got to get SSRIs from my job so I can’t quit my job right because I’ll lose my health insurance now that I’m addicted to SSRIs and if it’s a

Psilo Toad (29:46.136)
there.

Ian + Ben (30:10.762)
$200 prescription. I don’t know maybe $50 of its copay and Yeah for that kind of money you could basically buy an alternative that you could use and you just use as needed and that’s the difference those meds are Prescribed designed to be prescribed once a day and all these natural psych adults you don’t have to take them Yeah, every single day for them to work and five meo-DMT doesn’t have any

Psilo Toad (30:23.874)
it.

Psilo Toad (30:30.754)
right.

Ian + Ben (30:37.683)
Tolerance just like DMT. So looks like the Psilomethoxin containing mushrooms. Yeah, you don’t have the tolerance effect So we haven’t had people have any problems if they needed to take more the next day they don’t have to wait a few days down the line and take a tolerance break so for people Coming out this is rise. That’s that’s important. That’s that’s their big fear Like I’m gonna have a tough day and I’m gonna have to take more but then I’m gonna have to schedule my time off to get my

Psilo Toad (30:54.776)
Yeah.

Ian + Ben (31:06.898)
your tolerance back. So with 5HT1A doesn’t seem to be an issue.

Psilo Toad (31:09.698)
Okay.

Yeah, that tolerance aspect of it seems to be a huge lend itself to a lot of silo methoxin sort of unique properties. That’s just a small part of it. yeah, so speaking of five MEO DMT, just to switch gears here a little bit, I’m curious, Ian, we were discussing a little bit before the podcast episode started, but there’s a lot of interesting stuff going on right now in this sort of

with Sonoran Desert toads and you know could you kind of like give people a rundown on that and what’s going on because I do think that this is one of those things that it’s likely being there’s a lot of strong opinions and there’s a it’s a very sort of touchy topic and with that generally seems to come

misrepresentation if you will so yeah i i think that it’s likely probably being misrepresented in a lot of ways and so yeah could you get people to run down what’s going on with these little interesting critters

Ian + Ben (32:20.647)
Sure, So as far as we know, the Sonoran Desert Toad, the Sonoran Desert is into the US and Mexico, is the only Bufo Toad on the planet that makes 5 -Meo DMT and it’s glands on its back and legs. The other other Bufo makes Bufotenine, which can kill people and animals, or they make serotonin.

And yeah, our church has been going out to the desert for the past three seasons. yeah, I went out even three times this last season, which is really coming to an end right now, the monsoon in Arizona. And yeah.

to iterations out there. Yeah, there’s just a lot of people, know, sitting behind a keyboard writing about the toads, have never seen one in their entire life, and then they’re just repeating something else that someone says, right? And this is just how lies become the truth. So we care about the toads and want to understand them so we can help them. And we’ve just learned, you know, that there’s way bigger issues than hippies milking toads that are having any effect.

that’s not having an effect on their ecosystem or their lives. It’s, you know, things like all the water taken out of the Colorado River. It doesn’t always flow into Mexico. So the river that the toads are named after in Mexico doesn’t always have water. If there’s no water, there’s no toads. And you’ve got climate change, you know, right, where the amount of rainfall, the variability and all that are affecting the toads. but the biggest thing is probably called

habitat, whatever you want to call it, destruction, know, reconfiguration where we’ve been in a place where like two towns, okay, one tons of toads around like, you know, like a park, right, where it’s totally built into the natural environment. And then you go down 10 miles away in the same river system, right. And there’s no toads because they built an entire new development.

Ian + Ben (34:34.5)
It’s all this super thick gravel that they put down on top of the Sonoran Desert sand. And the toads use the burrows of the kangaroo rat and all the other animals do to like live underground when it’s hot outside. But if there’s, you know, if there’s, don’t know, was it like a half foot? If you got a half foot or a foot of this super heavy gravel, the toads have no chance. know what mean? So they can’t live there. So you just basically took a section of the Sonoran Desert.

you might as well just pour cement on top of it. outside of the big cities, there’s tons of toads out there. In the big cities, it gets questionable with construction and all things like that, but it’s things more like pesticide and fertilizer runoff that are big issues. yeah, so welcome to whatever questions talking about it. We spent a bunch of time out there and it’s really been super amazing and enlightening.

Psilo Toad (35:33.663)
Yeah, no, thanks for that because I’ve heard conflicting things about it. so what sort of like work is currently being done to help them and like what if someone’s interested in helping them what can they do?

Ian + Ben (35:47.375)
Okay, well, know your source and you know, it was three years ago a collector in Mexico was killed while collecting toad by the cartel after he was tortured first and so when that happened that meant pretty much now all the toad coming out of Mexico is cartel controlled and so

Yeah, at least know your source. If you’re going to take toad to commune with the divine, make sure it doesn’t have bloody hands on it. But to help them, I think it’s to learn about them, right? And to learn how we can build with nature where they can still live wherever they’re building new developments on. Restoration, It’s all these, we call them Texas dry creeks out there. They call them washes where water runs through when it rains, right?

What’s the biggest challenge that I’ve seen down in Tucson? It’s garbage, man. There’s just garbage in the town everywhere on top of their ecosystem. So I just learned through learning about it, learning about it, cautious consumption, you know, that if you’re gonna do it, know where the medicine came from. And yeah, our church is gonna go out next summer as well, right? And take people out there to experience it directly for themselves and to see what it’s all about.

They’ve tried some fair trade, know, toed initiatives, right? But it’s a big market and so far those kinds of things haven’t done anything. you know, what can people do? can, yeah, more conscious consumption. If they’re eat stuff, remember it goes into the environment when they’re done with it. And knowing how their food is grown and made and…

trying to have a responsible footprint, I guess, in the ecosystem.

Psilo Toad (37:47.458)
Awesome. Yeah, so is there anything else that you guys would like to leave people with for the day?

Ian + Ben (37:55.584)
That’s pretty good man. I feel good. feel relaxed. Yeah, I’ll just finish that to tie that fun Bufo stuff together. Before we met a gentleman at Cannadelic in what was that? That was 2022? this is it would be three years from this February. Yeah. He made Psilomethoxin from Bufo on his own.

He just took Bufo and he doped the substrate, fed the substrate of the psilocybin mushrooms. And we met him in Cannadelic because he’d heard about us and he gave us his stuff. I still have some, a little bit of it. And we were like, wow, we can’t tell any difference between this and the five meo-DMT -doped mushrooms we grew. I was hoping for a lot more of that. I was hoping for the homebrew revolution.

Psilo Toad (38:44.418)
Yeah.

Ian + Ben (38:51.678)
that people would be going to GNC and buying all the different amino acids they could and be pouring them into substrates. Cause I’m like, dude, Jochen Gartz did it. You know, we’re bringing it back, whatever. We’re rediscovering it. Why? Yeah. Cause everyone can grow mushrooms at home. had to have Terrence McKenna and his brother write a book under pseudonyms way back in the day. It’s how they got their money start to do some other stuff. Now everyone can grow. You can get, you know, sport.

Psilo Toad (38:52.333)
Yeah.

Psilo Toad (39:00.942)
Mm -hmm.

Psilo Toad (39:08.812)
All right.

Ian + Ben (39:19.952)
right in syringes and you can grow them at home. So yeah, I look forward to more people doing this kind of at home research themselves. And like we’ve told online, we fed the mushrooms, mexamine melatonin, tryptophan, and yeah, they make different outputs based on what you feed them.

Psilo Toad (39:22.03)
Mm.

Psilo Toad (39:40.172)
Yeah, I’ve always found that aspect of it super interesting. I have seen a few other reports online of sort of citizen scientists, if you will, who have also tried the sort of at -home brews with the Psilomethoxin so, yeah, okay, so yeah, the question I had was if somebody did want to do this sort of home brew,

Ian + Ben (39:56.818)
Yeah, nice.

Psilo Toad (40:08.11)
to psilomethoxin, be a citizen scientist, how much 5 MeO would you suggest, what sort of ratio would you suggest there?

Ian + Ben (40:15.132)
That’s part of it. So it’s like, how about this? I don’t even think Ben and I know the is everyone knows that the pyramids exist, but nobody knows how they were built. So that’s part of the fun, is like figuring that out for themselves. Gabriel, you just have to feed them enough. You just have to feed them enough.

Psilo Toad (40:30.83)
That’s right, that’s right. Just curious, just curious. Okay, cool. Awesome. Well, this has been a great episode. It’s been a lot of fun. Love you guys. Appreciate y ‘all. Yeah, much love. Peace out everybody.

Ian + Ben (40:46.174)
Thank you.

Ian + Ben (40:51.014)
All right.

Ian + Ben (40:56.57)
Anything else? I’m chilling.

Psilo Toad (40:56.782)
Look at that, celebration.